Tuesday, April 24, 2007 ______________________________________________________________________________

Because I Had No Eggs to Smash Rocks With 

So I was having this MSN conversation with a guy that I played Monopoly with online way back in 2001. We've kept in touch since. Today he was telling me that if I kept in touch with him, I would eventually believe in God. I was trying (nicely) to tell him that he was being condescending and that I have thought long and hard about religion and didn't need a blowhard assuming that I just hadn't found the right perspective yet. I wish I had the first part of this conversation but I had to restart my computer. Here is the rest of the conversation.

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jett says:
so then you agree there is no disprove of God

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
no prove either

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
*proof

jett says:
so then by what proof do you disbelieve in God?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
By the fact that I used to try and connect spiritually with as willing a spirit as I could muster

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and there was nothing

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
by the fact that there is so much intolerance in the bible that it cannot be proof of a loving god

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
by the fact that the church as an instiution which is supposed to be founded on Christian principles really only work on megalomaniacal ones

jett says:
if you read the new testament you would know why that is so

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
there is intolerance in the new testament as well

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
mysogyny at the very least

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
if there were a god, would he allow his avatars to be so corrupt?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
or are these not his true avatars?

jett says:
where did Jesus ever mistreat women? he saved one that you might know of

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
I mean seriously, it's been a while since he's last contacted us, don't you think?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
nothing necessarily in the gospels

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and mysogyny need not be direct abuse

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
I'm talking about the role assigned to women

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
to be subservient

jett says:
Jesus never ever put women as lesser than men

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
there are some prominent women in the gospels, maybe, but that's only four books of the NT

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
no, men are just supposed to head the households

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
no inequality there siree

jett says:
the four books that contain Jesus

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and so you believe in the gospels but not the other books?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
books that lay down lifestyle laws? like the epistles?

jett says:
you are following others not the Bible

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and if you only want to believe in the gospels, there's the conflicting tellings of Jesus' life story, there's also the fact that they were writting hundreds of years after he died

jett says:
never did God say men are any more important

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
why hasn't he come back since? he said he was coming back soon. You can't pull out the whole "yes but god's time is different, taking eternity into account blah blah blah, because you'd think an all knowing god would tailor his message for his audience

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and yeah, he did

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
he's posited them as spiritual heads

jett says:
feminists have clouded the truth that we need each other as much

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
don't even try and pull that bullshit out on me

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
feminists are trying to illuminate the truth that men and women need each other to be equal

jett says:
geez then you follow a women hate group that divides

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
the bible, which has no canonical gospels writtn by women

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
uhh, asking for equality is hate?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
asking for unity in persuing equality is divisive?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
how much drugs did you do in your youth?

jett says:
explain equality?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
the idea that gender does not impose restrictions on the worth of a person

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
neither does it have to define appropriate activities

jett says:
i know that outside of mathematical theory equality exists nowhere

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
yes, but systemic bias against a group of people based on the fact that they don't have cock and balls is a correctable inequality

jett says:
no two men are ever treated equally

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
I mean it's like saying "because there is no equality, I'm free to be a racist"

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
yes, but there are groups of men that systematically have an adavantage

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
not because of the individual that they are

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
but because of the group they incidentally belong to

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
that is an insituitionalized bias that can and must be corrected

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
take for example the partial-birth abortion ban

jett says:
if so it is in the realm theand women in other cultures do the samey created

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
that's a perfect example of inequality - the SCJ that announced the ruling invoked the idea of a woman who cannot be trusted to make up her own mind

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
that last sentence made no sense

jett says:
text shut don

jett says:
down

jett says:
i'm saying women control a lot more in other cultures

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
what does that have to do with feminism?

jett says:
equality is what

jett says:
equality can never exist

jett says:
anywhere ever

jett says:
equality is a thought of the mind

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and therefore we should not strive to remove an institutional bias but should instead try to maintain it?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
by perpetuating cultural sanctions on those who deviate from set roels?

jett says:
the businesses you want to control did not grow on a tree men built them

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
because womem were excluded and are still in many ways barred from the public sphere. Besides, feminists do not want to control businesses

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
also it is moot who "built" them

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
the fact is as we stand now, women are disproportionally disadvantaged because of long standing biases

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
the removal of those biases would be good for society in general (as has been shown by SOL surveys - gender equality is strongly correlated with overall SOL in countries all over the world)

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
had gender equality always existed and women were granted the same access to education and resources, it might not be the case that "men built all the business"

jett says:
i disagree with your persective of change

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
you think we should preserve the power imbalance?

jett says:
you make it sound as though this power was grown like a leaf

jett says:
all of the power women want to contol was created by men

jett says:
contro;

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and here's where you are mistaken

jett says:
control

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
feminists want equality

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
we don't want control

jett says:
yes you do

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and because it was created by men

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
now you're telling me what I want?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
that's presumptive

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and because it was created by men doesn't mean the system and its inequalities need be preserved

jett says:
i say create your own power and sail the earth conquer and invent as men have

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
within what structures?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
as it is women are being denied resources

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
you are asking women to remove themselves from the current system

jett says:
women flew areoplanes after countless men died perfecting it etc.

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
had women been given the opportunity to test and develop the technology as men had that might be a telling example,

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
but since they weren't, then no, that's irrelevant

jett says:
who gave men the opportutunity

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
religion

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
cultural norms that systematically devalued women

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
that are reflected in many world religions

jett says:
are you saying religion sent atthiest men into the air

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
yes. of course. that's what I'm saying

jett says:
are you saying every invention was from a religisious man what about galeilio sp

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
oh c'mon - what I'm saying is that by that point the institutional biases toward educating men but not women

jett says:
capericus

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
so because more men were educated

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
more research was done by them

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
it's all about statistics

jett says:
many great inventors were killed b/c of religion

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
more engineers design car engines than dancers

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
yes, another good example of religious biases

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
that are inherently harmful

jett says:
and proof os women prefer dancong to engine building

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
are you discounting societally constructed gender roles?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
more women are encouraged and allowed to be dancers than they are engineers

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
take for example the recent case of Kathy Sierra

jett says:
but men inventors were killed proving your regilion theoryincorrect

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
a prominent computer engineer who received death threats that no man would forced to cancel a speech in congerence

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
I'm saying religion is responsible for helping maintain institutional biases

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and that there is inherent mysogyny in many world religions

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
just because scientific change was also persecuted by religion doesn't mean that mysogyny was also not perpetuated by it

jett says:
you r changing in midstream

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
actually, no. you are

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
you asked who gave men the opportunity

jett says:
how am i

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and I'm saying systemic biases that have been made acceptable through religious doctrine

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
you're saying that's not the case, because scientists have been persecuted as well

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
that's beside the point - because the point is through the opportunities granted to men and not women, more men were given the opportunities you illuminate

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
so of course men scientists would be affected by religious movements to shut them down, because there are more men scientists than women anyway

jett says:
if women r equal then y do they need to first be allowed by men

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
so you're saying that the current inequality exists because men are superior and that this is the natural order of things?

jett says:
i asked a question and want an answerr is all

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
because women are equal but because of historical forces they currently exist in a male-dominated society

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
a society whose assumptions need to change about genders

jett says:
what historical forces

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
jesus shane, have you read anything I've been typing?

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
historically men have been granted more opportunities

jett says:
y were men ever in control

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
that's culturally dependent

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
but also irrelevant to the fact that there stands a bias that we as a society are able to correct

jett says:
i said that earlier

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
yes, there are some societies in which the genders are more equal

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and we shouuld try to reach that goal

jett says:
but women hold over 50 percent

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
?

jett says:
there r more women than men on earth

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
yes and yet men still hold the power in many instituitions

jett says:
y

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
like I said, because of historical biases

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
recognizing the fact that before birth control women HAD to stay in the homes

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
only spinsters were able to enter the public sphere

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
and since marriage and family is such a strong must in many cultures, being a spinster was seen as undesirable

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
basically before reproductive control the only available option open to women was to keep house and family

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
now that that has changed and women can enter the public sphere, they should not have to face obstacles based on an irrelevant historical point.

-45 minutes pass-

jett says:
it is harmful to us to discuss this

Joie would drink Jim's Kool Aid says:
why would you think so?

jett says:
i'm not going to say

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Honestly people, I can't make this shit up.

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posted by Joie! at 12:00 AM

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